With Dr. Mara Catherine Harvey on Working Women and their Challenges

Dr. Mara Catherine Harvey is the epitome of an empowered woman. She daringly embraces the hardships and deftly makes them into success stories with her hard work. Her success only made her more humble and selfless for she has pledged to empower other women and create awareness on wealth management and sustainable living. Vivamost is honored to meet Dr. Mara Catherine Harvey and discuss on challenges of working women and ways to fight them. 

Vivamost: Good evening, Dr. Harvey! We are grateful that you could meet for this interview despite your hectic schedule. Thank you so much!

Dr. Harvey: Good evening! It is no problem, thank you for having me.  

 

V: You are leading a senior position at one of the prestigious banks in the world but did you also face inequality at work being a woman? In terms of pay, promotions and et al?

Dr.MCH: All the research about gender imbalances in organizations and studies stating men get promoted on potential and women get promoted on performance is, I would argue, true. We’ve made some progress now, over the past 15 years, but it’s very slow progress. The percentage of senior women on company boards in Switzerland is still very, very small and we’re not getting more of them. If we were to do that, we would see proportionately more women than men being promoted – but we are not, and certainly not at the very top in the numbers that would be needed for the picture to change substantially. On the contrary, I remember a situation a few years ago, when only men were promoted to the most senior rank. So, I spoke to senior management, and I said, if this year you’ve only promoted men, then next year, you’d have to promote only women just to re-balance the gender ratios over two years and ensure you have the status quo of today, and you’re not even making progress. I asked, could you imagine a year in which you would promote only women and no men? And the answer was, of course, no. So yes, it is a hard journey for women in an industry that is still so imbalanced.

 

V: So, do you agree that because of this imbalanced system you had to work harder and longer to reach your present position?

Dr.MCH: I do think so, yes. (Ponders for a while) I mean, it wasn’t easy to reach the stage where I am. I think the bigger question I ask myself is, what is the perspective going forward? Is it realistic any time soon even if performing exceedingly well to reach executive level? Simply because, if you’re in an industry that is under massive margin compression, disruption and pressure, what happens structurally is that organizations are extremely cost conscious. In that context, any organization is extremely restrictive in terms of how many people they promote. And again, it becomes a numbers game: if you don’t have space to promote very many people, it becomes even harder to make enough space to improve the gender balance. Out of a pool of candidates for the next promotion, the chances to materially advance equality are slim if there aren’t enough promotion slots in the first place. In a growing business, in a growing sector, in a strong economic environment, it’s easier to make gender balance a top priority. But, it’s really hard to maintain it as a top priority in a shrinking environment.

I do believe that because of all of the public scrutiny on the topic of gender today, companies can’t afford not to make it a priority. But again, the question is, how fast? And, this is why there’s a huge debate about do we need gender quotas or don’t we need gender quotas. I say, it would be lovely not to need them, but without them we’re unlikely to see fast progress.

 

V: So talking about bottlenecks, maternity is one of the exasperated hurdles women have to face in career growth? What are your insights on it?

Dr.MCH: It is a tragedy that until a few years ago child birth was often coupled with a compensation penalty for women and a premium for men. There is a lot of research on this topic. Today, however, we are now no longer seeing, from a compensation perspective, maternity as something where women are penalized . But in terms of promotion, I don’t think we’re there yet. I can’t think of any women I know who have said: “I got a promotion while I was on maternity” or “despite the maternity leave my promotion came through”. In my view, an organization should consider a maternity leave and temporary coverage purely as a matter of logistics. We just need to find pragmatic ways to enable organisational flexibility. We need to normalize maternity leave like any other logistics challenge. Logistics cannot be the hurdle to gender equality. And we should have equal parental leave for both parents.

 

V: In our previous conversations you said you never negotiated on your compensation. Was it because you were comfortable with your pay or you were uncomfortable with negotiation discussions?

Dr.MCH: A combination of both. I was definitely not comfortable talking about money because precisely I grew up in an environment where it was considered rude to talk about money. You don’t ask other people how much they make and you don’t ask for more money either. That is typically Swiss, I would say. The whole banking industry is also based on the notion of discretion. So, I never really learned, neither at school nor as a teenager nor with my friends and with my family, how important negotiation skills would be when it comes to money. Having said that, during critical moments of my career when I took on a new role, I felt I was rewarded adequately. I didn’t think that I was systematically penalized because I had no idea what the men in same roles were getting. It was only later in life that I realized that women need to learn to negotiate harder in order to realize their full economic potential.

 

V: So, what should women know to earn their correct compensation?

Dr.MCH: I have a lovely friend, Wies Bratby. She is the founder of “Women in Negotiation”, she coaches women on mastering negotiation skills. I found it very amusing when she said the salary you are asking for is a figure that makes you sick to your stomach when you’re asking for, then you’re probably close to what you should get. And, that really stuck with me because I do realize how men are way bolder in their salary expectations during hiring. I think that it’s so important that the younger generations understand that this is a reality. Men ask more and they get more and the ladies should learn to ask for more too. These patterns are already visible with pocket money too! That’s where pay gaps start. So, first and foremost, just need to know that if you don’t ask, you won’t get more. Don’t expect a manager to be nice to you just because you did a good job. We women often think, as long as I’ve done my part, I’m going to be treated fairly. I’m not saying that people will treat you unfairly but if you have a colleague who’s also done a good job and has gone several times to his boss during the year asking for a pay rise and If at the end of the year that manager has a small amount of money and has to decide who to give it to, it’s likely they’ll give it to the person who asked for it most loudly. As women, we need to be aware of those dynamics. We need to feel confident talking about money.

 

V: Do you observe that women tend to sacrifice their pay for taking up additional responsibilities or that women need advice on negotiating their compensation?

Dr.MCH: Yes, often women take on stretch assignments to prove themselves and develop further, but they only end up working even more for the same pay. This is a situation you don’t want to end up in, or at least not for too long. It comes back to the saying “women are promoted on performance and men are promoted on potential”. When it comes to salary negotiation, you have to have a dialogue and you have to take the risk of not knowing how the other person is going to react. In mentoring discussions, there’s always space to try and encourage younger women to engage in those conversations with their line managers. However, I think that, we also need to acknowledge that many men might not feel comfortable having that conversation because they’re not used to women who are assertive, demanding and “pushy”. So the learning curve is on both sides. Nevertheless, the only way is to try, because you might be positively surprised. If you don’t get an answer in line with your expectations, then flip the question the other way around and ask: “What do you think it would take for me to reach the next level?” Because people might not agree entirely with your view or your expectations, but then they certainly must have their own view. So make it a two way conversation.

 

V: You have served and are serving on advisory boards for several companies, most of them are the initiatives that encourage women empowerment.

Dr.MCH: Exactly. I am very keen to support other female entrepreneurs and professional women whenever I can. I live by Madeleine Albright’s motto: there’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women! I am determined to say yes to as many people who ask me for help, support or advice as I possibly can!

 

V: That’s wonderful to know. The world needs more mentors like you. As a mentor, what were the challenges that, you find, afflict the women most?

Dr.MCH: The first is, indeed, how many women feel that they no longer have a development opportunity after maternity. Very often, after their return to work, they feel downgraded. Of course, if you’re not around for six months, your tasks are distributed within the team and sometimes are offered to another peer giving an impression that somebody has replaced you. But, line managers need to make an effort, when you come back, to make sure your work content hasn’t just become “all the things the others no longer want to do”, instead of a portfolio of tasks that match your skill set. That’s something women I mentor often complain about.

Another challenge that women often mention is career roadblock. Women who have outgrown their current opportunity. They expect to be promoted but their line managers are telling them, “your role isn’t big enough” or “your role as such doesn’t justify the higher rank”. And, when these women ask their managers to broaden their responsibilities so that they can take a next career step, usually that is where managers are sometimes not able or willing to help. Often because they want to hold on to their great talent. It’s great to always be the one who delivers and it’s great to get a pat on the shoulder by your boss, but if your boss isn’t enabling you to grow and to move on to the next challenge or role, then it really is time for a change. Because otherwise you’re just going to be in a parking position. These are the kinds of conversations that often emerge in mentor-ship discussion.

 

V:  Switzerland has a significant population of expats and with them come the  trailing spouses who are mostly women. In many instances, the expat lifestyle has broken careers for women. Can you give advice on how to survive this career suicide?

Dr.MCH: This is very, very hard question to answer because I’ve not really been in that situation myself (other than witnessing my mother’s experience). I would probably look at it this way: first, determine roughly what the time horizon is and whether you are planning to go back or not. Make sure that you use that period for enrichment and skill set improvement so that when you do go back, it doesn’t look as though there’s a hole in your CV, but rather there are lots of other complimentary things to your CV. That could involve working with organizations as volunteers, where you’re driving a change, or engaging in topics that you are passionate about because inevitably, you will be building competency and also visibility, which I think is very important and can be beneficial for later.

Respectively, consider self employment, even if you need to start very small and that would allow you to leverage your skill, your passion. Try to find like minded people maybe to share experience who would like to go on that journey or have done something similar. Because what I do find very beautiful and especially, this is true for all of the women I speak to, is they are such a support system if you ask for it. That’s been my biggest lesson learned: I grew up with a mother who never asked for help. She was very tough, very determined, very hardworking, very resilient. It was interesting that she was always too proud to ask. And, that is the attitude I also had a little bit initially. I think it’s only been the last five years or so that I’ve actually embraced asking other people and friends for support. I believe we all need a support system and especially if you’re a trailing spouse because you don’t have your friends and your family here. I would say, out of some lessons learned in life, I think, probably the biggest and most important first step is to find communities, networks, group of supportive people where you’re going to find just that emotional support, that creative space for ideas to emerge, because I believe if that dialogue can emerge, I’m sure opportunities can be found.

 

V: There is a popular assumption that women can’t have it all. Is that true and what is one parenting tip you swear by?

Dr.MCH: Here is a very, very simple tip. Drop the guilt! I carried around the sense of guilt for not being good enough mother, for not being there enough for my kids and for others, for way too many years of my life. Until I actually realized that my kids had everything they need and all the love they needed, all the encouragement they needed and all the possibilities they needed. They’ve actually grown up to be pretty decent human beings (Laughs).  

I was always joking with my friends – “if my kids grow up not to be drug dealers and not to be terrorists, I will consider myself a successful mother! No matter what they choose to do, as long as they are decent, normal, nice human beings.” I don’t think there’s any man on the planet who feels guilty about having a career.

 

V: We are nearing to the start of another year and this means setting goals and resolutions. What is your advice for goal setting?

Dr.MCH: The only advice I can ever give is to find the big chunks first. It really is so important to get the big picture and the big priorities into your diary relatively fast. It’s like having a jar, if you put the rocks in first you can still fill in loads of sand but if you put the sand in first, you’ll never get all the rocks in. That analogy is very true for life as well.

• Dr. Harvey
• Finance
• Gender inequality
• Mara Catherine Harvey
• Woman
• Women at work